Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus and Seneca vs Jordan B. Peterson on life, values and goals

A virtual debate orchestrated via ChatGPT to dig up true stoicism and its relevance today

I’ve been busy building quietly, so the interviews have dropped lower on my to-do list. However, tonight I’m waiting on some API calls to process, as well as some regex to be applied, so here I am, thinking about stoicism.

I chose to bring back three of the top names and pit them against the controversial character that is Jordan Peterson, whose followers might benefit from reading some of these authors. Nothing like a bit of controversy to drive interest to this virtual roundtable.

First, about the participants:

1. Marcus Aurelius - He was a Roman Emperor from 161 to 180 AD and is known for his personal philosophical writings, now known as Meditations. This work, originally written in Greek while on campaign, is a reflection on stoic philosophy and guidance for self-improvement.

2. Epictetus - A Greek Stoic philosopher, he was born a slave at Hierapolis, Phrygia (present day Pamukkale, Turkey), and lived in Rome until his banishment, when he went to Nicopolis in northwestern Greece for the rest of his life. His teachings were transcribed and compiled by his pupil Arrian into the "Discourses," "Enchiridion" (the handbook) among others.

3. Seneca the Younger - He was a Roman Stoic philosopher, statesman, and dramatist. His works include letters to friends and moral essays. His writings are considered essential reading for those studying Stoicism.

Jordan Peterson doesn’t need an introduction in today’s world. If you clicked on the article, you probably know who he is and what he stands for.

Generated with Bing AI - anonymous stoics, after failing with the “Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus and Seneca vs Jordan B. Peterson roundtable” prompt

I’ll get to that now.

I asked ChatGPT the following:

Using each of the three authors' voices and writings, debate Jordan B Peterson's beliefs about self-improvement, life and men.

Marcus Aurelius: "Peterson often says, 'Stand up straight with your shoulders back' and stresses the importance of taking responsibility for one's own life. This is in alignment with my own reflections in Meditations, where I say, 'You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.' Yet, he often delves into the nature of chaos and order, symbolizing them as feminine and masculine respectively. This is a dichotomy not found in Stoic thought. We believe that virtue is the sole good, irrelevant of gender or societal roles."

Epictetus: "Peterson's insistence on the individual's role in their own self-improvement aligns with my own teachings. As I have said, 'It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.' We both agree that life is full of suffering and it's how we handle that suffering that defines us. But, Peterson's focus on the cultural wars and political ideologies of his time may not be as productive. Stoics believe in focusing on what is within our control, and societal structures are often beyond that."

Seneca the Younger: "Peterson advises that 'to learn is to die voluntarily and be born again, in great ways and small.' I see echoes of my own words in his, as I wrote 'No man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity. For he is not permitted to prove himself.' But, his views on men as being naturally more competitive and women as more agreeable, are too deterministic for a Stoic. Stoicism teaches us that our virtues and vices are not determined by our birth, but by our choices and actions."

It's important to remember, Stoicism is fundamentally about self-improvement and becoming a better person by focusing on what's within our control, developing our virtues, and accepting what we cannot change. Peterson's beliefs sometimes align with these principles, but his emphasis on societal structures and gender differences may not entirely resonate with Stoic philosophy.

I included the commentary from GPT at the end, since it’s a good summary on where the beliefs converge and where they diverge, when it comes to this group of four.

Next up, I asked the stoics to teach Peterson's followers as if they were on stage in a round table. Here’s what I got:

Marcus Aurelius would likely emphasize the importance of self-improvement and internal strength, saying: "Pay attention to the power of your own mind. Outside events cannot touch your inner peace unless you allow them to. You have control over your reactions and responses, and therein lies your strength. In the face of adversity, remember that the obstacle is the way. Seek not to remove all obstacles from your path, but to use them as fuel for growth."

Epictetus would focus on control and response, asserting: "Remember what is within your control and what is not. You cannot control the events that happen to you, the actions of others, or the world at large. You can control your responses, your judgments, and your actions. It is not the things that happen to you, but your response to them, that causes your emotions. Life will present challenges and adversity, but you have the power to choose how you respond."

Seneca would likely stress the value of adversity and virtue, stating: "Adversity and hardship are not misfortunes to be feared, but opportunities to prove oneself. It is through the crucible of adversity that character is formed and virtue is developed. Seek not a life of comfort and ease, but a life of purpose, virtue, and growth. Virtue is the highest good and the ultimate goal of life. All else - wealth, reputation, health - are secondary and not within our control."

Seems like they would agree on some things, no? I wanted to go a level deeper: I asked them to address some of Peterson’s more controversial topics. Here’s what they said:

Marcus Aurelius might say: "We must recognize the interconnectedness of all people, irrespective of their gender or status. While some may argue for the naturalness of hierarchy, we should remember that virtue and wisdom, not power or status, are the highest goods. In discussion and debate, seek truth and understanding, not victory or domination."

Epictetus could respond: "One's birth, whether as a man or woman, is not within one's control and thus not a good or evil. Virtue can be pursued by all. As for hierarchy, it exists in society, yet it should not affect our pursuit of what's good. The true power lies in our response to events, not in our societal ranking. As for political correctness, it is external and not within our control. Instead, focus on what you can control - your actions, judgments, and responses."

Seneca would likely argue: "We must remember that we are first and foremost citizens of the world. Our actions and choices should be guided by reason, virtue, and the betterment of all, not solely by the advancement of our own status or the preservation of societal norms. As for gender differences, they are aspects of nature but do not define our capacity for virtue. Regarding political correctness, it is the intention behind our words and actions that matter most. Strive for kindness, understanding, and justice in all your interactions."

Now, let’s not forget that stoics and stoicism have some controversial values as well. With that in mind, I asked our three resident stoics to talk about that and they each chose one:

1. The belief in the indifference of external events (Marcus Aurelius):

Some critics argue that this belief can lead to passivity and indifference to social justice. Marcus Aurelius might respond by saying, "It is not that external events are unimportant or that we should not strive for justice and improvement in the world. Rather, it is that we should not allow our inner peace and happiness to be dependent on external circumstances. We can strive for justice while accepting that the outcome is not entirely within our control. This does not lead to passivity, but to a more resilient and consistent pursuit of justice."

2. The belief in determinism (Epictetus):

Epictetus' deterministic views are often criticized as promoting fatalism. Epictetus might justify his views by saying, "The Stoic belief in determinism does not mean we do not have control over our actions. It means we must distinguish between what we can control and what we cannot. We cannot control the circumstances of our birth, the actions of others, or the laws of nature. We can control our judgments, decisions, and actions. This belief does not promote passivity but fosters responsibility, resilience, and acceptance."

3. The belief in virtue as the sole good (Seneca):

Critics often argue that this belief can lead to neglect of physical well-being and material resources. Seneca might defend this view by saying, "We do not argue that physical well-being or material resources are unimportant. Rather, we believe they are 'preferred indifferents.' It is better to have them than not, but they are not the highest good. The highest good is virtue because it is the only thing that can guarantee happiness, regardless of our circumstances. This belief does not lead to neglect of physical well-being, but to a more balanced and resilient approach to life."

Even with healthy teachings, it’s easy to fall into extremes and be trapped by some circumstance that explains your current pain and reduces the discomfort of needing to change.

Ok, so what does this all mean for the 21st century? What can we take home with us from these three stoics and from stoicism without falling in toxic traps?

Here’s what ChatGPT had to say:

Marcus Aurelius: "In these times of ceaseless news and infinite distractions, one must learn to distinguish the essential from the inessential. Just as I wrote in my Meditations during the tumultuous days of my reign, remember, 'You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.' This is as true today as it was then. It is not the noise and bustle that disturbs us, but our judgment of it."

Epictetus: "We live in an era of constant change and uncertainty, not unlike the times of Rome that I myself experienced. The key, as I have always professed, is understanding the dichotomy of control. ‘We cannot choose our external circumstances, but we can always choose how we respond to them.’ This teaching holds the remedy for the stress and anxiety of your modern world."

Seneca: "Despite the advances of your age, the human condition remains as it was. We still strive for peace of mind, for purpose, for a life well-lived. These are found not in the abundance of possessions but in the richness of virtue. As I once wrote, 'It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor.' This is the antidote to your age's unchecked materialism. Furthermore, Stoicism's principle of global citizenship - of being part of a great human community - is a much-needed salve in your interconnected yet divided world."

Something to think about.

Till the next one!